Comments on: A Taste of Environmental Extremism http://www.wvared.com/?p=313 Tue, 07 Sep 2010 14:24:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Watcher http://www.wvared.com/?p=313&cpage=1#comment-1958 Watcher Wed, 16 Sep 2009 20:35:50 +0000 http://www.wvared.com/?p=313#comment-1958 JUST IN ! The Obama admin:..... Cap & Trade will cost Amarican families $ 1,761.00 a year. This will be devistating to seniors on fixed incomes!http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/15/taking_liberties/entry5314040.shtml JUST IN ! The Obama admin:….. Cap & Trade will cost Amarican families $ 1,761.00 a year. This will be devistating to seniors on fixed incomes!http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/15/taking_liberties/entry5314040.shtml

]]> By: Watcher http://www.wvared.com/?p=313&cpage=1#comment-1629 Watcher Wed, 26 Aug 2009 19:49:01 +0000 http://www.wvared.com/?p=313#comment-1629 The Internal Revenue Services website states: A section 501(c) (3( organization may NOT have purposes for ,or activities that ars ILLEGAL or violate fundamental public policy. If they do so they stand to lose their TAX EXEMPT STATUS. The Internal Revenue Services website states: A section 501(c) (3( organization may NOT have purposes for ,or activities that ars ILLEGAL or violate fundamental public policy. If they do so they stand to lose their TAX EXEMPT STATUS.

]]> By: D Johnson http://www.wvared.com/?p=313&cpage=1#comment-106 D Johnson Fri, 29 May 2009 23:12:33 +0000 http://www.wvared.com/?p=313#comment-106 Whoever owns the land and or mineral rights should be able to harvest the earth's wealth for the benefit of mankind. If the wackos want to save a mountain top (one wonders why), simply buy it, there's a whole bunch of them out there. Wackos would be comical except that they've taken over the democrat party and impose their silliness upon the rest of us simply because they can. WV streams are clean, most people wouldn't have a clue that a mountain has been "destroyed" except that they see pictures of it when it is in the process of being renovated. After mining, the new and improved area becomes a rich habitat for wild life and can be used for various useful purposes. Wackos just simply have too much time on their hands so they get involved in anti-civilization schemes to add some sense of purpose to their otherwise meaningless lives. Whoever owns the land and or mineral rights should be able to harvest the earth’s wealth for the benefit of mankind. If the wackos want to save a mountain top (one wonders why), simply buy it, there’s a whole bunch of them out there. Wackos would be comical except that they’ve taken over the democrat party and impose their silliness upon the rest of us simply because they can.

WV streams are clean, most people wouldn’t have a clue that a mountain has been “destroyed” except that they see pictures of it when it is in the process of being renovated. After mining, the new and improved area becomes a rich habitat for wild life and can be used for various useful purposes.

Wackos just simply have too much time on their hands so they get involved in anti-civilization schemes to add some sense of purpose to their otherwise meaningless lives.

]]> By: Mary Jones http://www.wvared.com/?p=313&cpage=1#comment-91 Mary Jones Thu, 28 May 2009 19:31:25 +0000 http://www.wvared.com/?p=313#comment-91 Mike, you are clearly influenced by coal money, and I understand your fears, but your arguments are poorly conceived. Firstly, I was not comparing coal miners to slaves. As you are undoubtedly aware, it was the party of Lincoln, the Republican party, that was anti-slave when slavery was still legal. It took the Civil War and the 13th Amendment to the Constitution to make slavery illegal. <B>My point was that slavery, a horrible crime on humanity, was legal even when a growing number of Americans, including President Lincoln, knew it was immoral.</B> 246 years of Slavery was ended, an Economy of half the country changed, and the United States turned out pretty darn good. Mountaintop Removal has thankfully only been around a few decades, has decimated the true number of mining jobs, and caused environmental pollution and destruction that will be felt for generations to come. <B>It took an amendment to the Constitution to end Slavery, it only takes enforcement of existing laws to end MTR.</B> My suggestion to this discussion is to begin thinking about the future. We must begin to diversify the coalfields economy. It is a fact that Coal will run out. You can't dispute that fact. It is a finite resource. Debating how much longer we have to benefit from it or being so narrow-sighted as to only care about yourself and not the generations of WVians to come does not help figure out a solution. <B>Hollow scare tactics do not produce solutions.</B> Your talk of terrorism is insulting to the proud people of WV. MTR Operators literally blast tons of rock daily, showering into peoples' homes. Is that not violence? But what is worse is your chosen ignorance of what the sludge and blasting is doing to the health of our coalfield communities. People are dying of cancer at unprecedented rates in the coalfields. The water sources run black with toxins. To argue any similarity between MTR pollution versus household cleaners or poor parenting is obnoxious at best. Thats like saying a child left to play in the street is bound to be hit by a car. No duh. That, along with your poor argument, can happen to anyone, anwhere. But folks living downwind and downstream don't have a choice to breathe or bathe or cook using pollued water. I'm guessing you are so blinded by your own personal greed that you will argue they should take care of themselves or move. Or better yet, you'll probably say the pollution is unproven or blatant lies. And I love this particular line: "I doubt if many people in the US would agree with your logic." Well Mike, something tells me that the Majority of the US understands and agrees with my logic. Oh right, its called a Presidential Election. Come on back with some more the-sky-is-falling talking points. And if you want to use facts, start citing sources and I will gladly do the same. <B>Love ya Mike!</B> Mike, you are clearly influenced by coal money, and I understand your fears, but your arguments are poorly conceived.

Firstly, I was not comparing coal miners to slaves. As you are undoubtedly aware, it was the party of Lincoln, the Republican party, that was anti-slave when slavery was still legal. It took the Civil War and the 13th Amendment to the Constitution to make slavery illegal. My point was that slavery, a horrible crime on humanity, was legal even when a growing number of Americans, including President Lincoln, knew it was immoral. 246 years of Slavery was ended, an Economy of half the country changed, and the United States turned out pretty darn good. Mountaintop Removal has thankfully only been around a few decades, has decimated the true number of mining jobs, and caused environmental pollution and destruction that will be felt for generations to come.

It took an amendment to the Constitution to end Slavery, it only takes enforcement of existing laws to end MTR.
My suggestion to this discussion is to begin thinking about the future. We must begin to diversify the coalfields economy. It is a fact that Coal will run out. You can’t dispute that fact. It is a finite resource. Debating how much longer we have to benefit from it or being so narrow-sighted as to only care about yourself and not the generations of WVians to come does not help figure out a solution. Hollow scare tactics do not produce solutions.

Your talk of terrorism is insulting to the proud people of WV. MTR Operators literally blast tons of rock daily, showering into peoples’ homes. Is that not violence? But what is worse is your chosen ignorance of what the sludge and blasting is doing to the health of our coalfield communities. People are dying of cancer at unprecedented rates in the coalfields. The water sources run black with toxins. To argue any similarity between MTR pollution versus household cleaners or poor parenting is obnoxious at best. Thats like saying a child left to play in the street is bound to be hit by a car. No duh. That, along with your poor argument, can happen to anyone, anwhere. But folks living downwind and downstream don’t have a choice to breathe or bathe or cook using pollued water.
I’m guessing you are so blinded by your own personal greed that you will argue they should take care of themselves or move. Or better yet, you’ll probably say the pollution is unproven or blatant lies.

And I love this particular line: “I doubt if many people in the US would agree with your logic.”
Well Mike, something tells me that the Majority of the US understands and agrees with my logic. Oh right, its called a Presidential Election.

Come on back with some more the-sky-is-falling talking points. And if you want to use facts, start citing sources and I will gladly do the same.

Love ya Mike!

]]> By: Mike http://www.wvared.com/?p=313&cpage=1#comment-90 Mike Thu, 28 May 2009 18:26:31 +0000 http://www.wvared.com/?p=313#comment-90 Mary Jones, My use of the word "terror" is not one of physical fear, but mental fear. It goes to the feeling of uncertainty that those in the coal industry have every time a lawsuit is filed to stop a permit from being issued, not knowing what the outcome will be, given which judge or judges will be ruling on the case; the uncertainty that millions of dollars of investment may be deemed worthless; the uncertainty that a job may be lost due to a judge's ruling, and not market forces; and the uncertainty that some of these protesters may someday actually engage in violent acts, including the sabotage and destruction of equipment and property, just like the Earth First and ELF groups have out West. Terrorism, as defined by Dictionary.Com, is the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes. Granted, no physical acts of violence have taken place, but the possibility of this does exist, based on the previous actions of the groups noted above. The actions taken by those opposed to coal are certainly meant to coerce and intimidate for political purposes their own agenda of the elimination of not only mountaintop mining, but coal-fired power plants, which will also eliminate underground mining and all coal...period. I offer this based on reading news posts and commentary on the various anti-coal websites, which I am sure you are familiar with. Mountaintop mining is just the most visible way for the anti-coal crowd to whip up a frenzy about the product and kneecap it, then move on to the next area, be it coal-fired power plants or underground mining. After all, it is difficult to fight a two or three-front war...gotta pick your battles, even if it means deceiving others about your true intentions. To compare coal mining to slavery because slavery was once legal is ridiculous. Unlike slavery, the workers are paid very well and receive excellent benefits, are not mistreated by their employers, and last I checked, weren't running away in the middle of the night to escape their hellish existence. Your argument goes nowhere on that point, as you define "just" by your own ideas, not those generally accepted by society at large. I doubt if many people in the US would agree with your logic. As for the "sludge" you talk about being toxic and a danger to homes, I challenge you to find any household cleaning product in your home that isn't. Arguably, there are clearly more children around the world are in more danger in their own homes due to the accessibility of poisonous cleaning chemicals which can be easily ingested due to careless parenting than residents of WV. Does that mean we ban household cleaners? Of course not. Like mining, they must be used responsibly by people who know what they're doing. As for the dams being "poorly engineered", you have no idea what you are talking about. The mining industry takes the construction of valley fills and other overburden depositories very seriously. Some of the best mining and civil engineers around are employed to ensure the safe construction and maintenance of these structures, and next to the nuclear energy industry, the coal industry is probably the most heavily regulated industry in the U.S. in terms of safety. The financial penalties for shoddy compliance are a sufficient barrier to poor engineering and cost-cutting, and those who design and construct them have a vested interest as residents of the area and don't want to see a tragedy take place. As far as your argument about the overtime, that does not address the issue that these people's jobs are in jeopardy due to the actions of these irresponsible activists. I am concerned with keeping a healthy coal industry vibrant and growing in WV; one that is profitable, makes investments, and creates high-paying jobs with excellent benefits and that WV businesses can make money and hire employees by providing the mine sites with goods and services. There are nearly 150,000 people whose jobs depend on the coal industry. If the enviros succeed, a cataclysmic disaster awaits this state in terms of unemployment, reduced taxes, increased social costs, the breakup of families, and financial ruin. Is this what you folks want? Mark my words...it's what will happen if you get your way. I do not speak from emotion. I speak with facts and logic, and unlike the trespassers arrested at the Massey mine, don't lump in items that have nothing to do with the issue (like racism, the war in Iraq, etc.) I love mountains, too...particularly the ones with coal underneath them. Peace and love back to you. Mary Jones,
My use of the word “terror” is not one of physical fear, but mental fear. It goes to the feeling of uncertainty that those in the coal industry have every time a lawsuit is filed to stop a permit from being issued, not knowing what the outcome will be, given which judge or judges will be ruling on the case; the uncertainty that millions of dollars of investment may be deemed worthless; the uncertainty that a job may be lost due to a judge’s ruling, and not market forces; and the uncertainty that some of these protesters may someday actually engage in violent acts, including the sabotage and destruction of equipment and property, just like the Earth First and ELF groups have out West.
Terrorism, as defined by Dictionary.Com, is the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes. Granted, no physical acts of violence have taken place, but the possibility of this does exist, based on the previous actions of the groups noted above. The actions taken by those opposed to coal are certainly meant to coerce and intimidate for political purposes their own agenda of the elimination of not only mountaintop mining, but coal-fired power plants, which will also eliminate underground mining and all coal…period. I offer this based on reading news posts and commentary on the various anti-coal websites, which I am sure you are familiar with. Mountaintop mining is just the most visible way for the anti-coal crowd to whip up a frenzy about the product and kneecap it, then move on to the next area, be it coal-fired power plants or underground mining. After all, it is difficult to fight a two or three-front war…gotta pick your battles, even if it means deceiving others about your true intentions.
To compare coal mining to slavery because slavery was once legal is ridiculous. Unlike slavery, the workers are paid very well and receive excellent benefits, are not mistreated by their employers, and last I checked, weren’t running away in the middle of the night to escape their hellish existence. Your argument goes nowhere on that point, as you define “just” by your own ideas, not those generally accepted by society at large. I doubt if many people in the US would agree with your logic.
As for the “sludge” you talk about being toxic and a danger to homes, I challenge you to find any household cleaning product in your home that isn’t. Arguably, there are clearly more children around the world are in more danger in their own homes due to the accessibility of poisonous cleaning chemicals which can be easily ingested due to careless parenting than residents of WV. Does that mean we ban household cleaners? Of course not. Like mining, they must be used responsibly by people who know what they’re doing.
As for the dams being “poorly engineered”, you have no idea what you are talking about. The mining industry takes the construction of valley fills and other overburden depositories very seriously. Some of the best mining and civil engineers around are employed to ensure the safe construction and maintenance of these structures, and next to the nuclear energy industry, the coal industry is probably the most heavily regulated industry in the U.S. in terms of safety. The financial penalties for shoddy compliance are a sufficient barrier to poor engineering and cost-cutting, and those who design and construct them have a vested interest as residents of the area and don’t want to see a tragedy take place.
As far as your argument about the overtime, that does not address the issue that these people’s jobs are in jeopardy due to the actions of these irresponsible activists. I am concerned with keeping a healthy coal industry vibrant and growing in WV; one that is profitable, makes investments, and creates high-paying jobs with excellent benefits and that WV businesses can make money and hire employees by providing the mine sites with goods and services.
There are nearly 150,000 people whose jobs depend on the coal industry. If the enviros succeed, a cataclysmic disaster awaits this state in terms of unemployment, reduced taxes, increased social costs, the breakup of families, and financial ruin. Is this what you folks want? Mark my words…it’s what will happen if you get your way.
I do not speak from emotion. I speak with facts and logic, and unlike the trespassers arrested at the Massey mine, don’t lump in items that have nothing to do with the issue (like racism, the war in Iraq, etc.)
I love mountains, too…particularly the ones with coal underneath them.
Peace and love back to you.

]]> By: Mary Jones http://www.wvared.com/?p=313&cpage=1#comment-89 Mary Jones Thu, 28 May 2009 15:30:39 +0000 http://www.wvared.com/?p=313#comment-89 Mike, I feel extreme words like "terrorism" weakens the arguments of the pro-MTR side. I doubt anyone who works for any of the MTR sites feels "terror" when they drive up and see a group of peacenicks holding bibles and singing songs. I don't think the protesters use explosives, unlike the MTR operators. I think it is also too broad to say that they are against "ALL COAL." Have they protested any responsible underground sites recently? Many of these protesters have family in the mines. They just have concerns about their childrens' futures. I feel like you are angry when you respond to me ("deal with it.")? The legality of MTR is certainly what this debate is about. <B>Slavery was legal once too. </B> My point is that just because something is "legal" does not make it "just." It also doesn't mean that because something is legal today doesn't mean it can't change tomorrow. Should we just "hope" that doesn't happen, or take a "responsible" approach now to protect our coal profitability for the future? The enviro's argument is related to health and safety of the communities around MTR sites. Do you dispute that coal sludge is toxic? Coal producers can dispose of coal slurry in much more responsible ways, rather than creating poorly engineered overburden dams and letting the sludge leech into groundwater supplies. As a Friend of Coal, that shouldn't seem too much to ask. I think the Coal execs are much smarter than those of us on this blog. They understand you can't get blood from a turnip. Besides, if we're concerned about the heavy equipment operators at the MTR sites, as you mention about "how would you feel," it is my understanding, from the mouths of MTR site workers, that they received overtime pay due to the protests. So if we're truly concerned about the workers, we should be appreciative of the financial bonus provided to our local workers. Or are we to be more concerned with corporate profits? Emotional language does nothing to enhance this debate. In fact, it makes it difficult to have a serious discussion about a very serious issue in WV. Peace and Love, Mary Mike, I feel extreme words like “terrorism” weakens the arguments of the pro-MTR side. I doubt anyone who works for any of the MTR sites feels “terror” when they drive up and see a group of peacenicks holding bibles and singing songs. I don’t think the protesters use explosives, unlike the MTR operators.

I think it is also too broad to say that they are against “ALL COAL.” Have they protested any responsible underground sites recently? Many of these protesters have family in the mines. They just have concerns about their childrens’ futures.

I feel like you are angry when you respond to me (“deal with it.”)? The legality of MTR is certainly what this debate is about. Slavery was legal once too. My point is that just because something is “legal” does not make it “just.” It also doesn’t mean that because something is legal today doesn’t mean it can’t change tomorrow. Should we just “hope” that doesn’t happen, or take a “responsible” approach now to protect our coal profitability for the future?

The enviro’s argument is related to health and safety of the communities around MTR sites. Do you dispute that coal sludge is toxic? Coal producers can dispose of coal slurry in much more responsible ways, rather than creating poorly engineered overburden dams and letting the sludge leech into groundwater supplies. As a Friend of Coal, that shouldn’t seem too much to ask.

I think the Coal execs are much smarter than those of us on this blog. They understand you can’t get blood from a turnip. Besides, if we’re concerned about the heavy equipment operators at the MTR sites, as you mention about “how would you feel,” it is my understanding, from the mouths of MTR site workers, that they received overtime pay due to the protests. So if we’re truly concerned about the workers, we should be appreciative of the financial bonus provided to our local workers. Or are we to be more concerned with corporate profits?

Emotional language does nothing to enhance this debate. In fact, it makes it difficult to have a serious discussion about a very serious issue in WV.

Peace and Love,
Mary

]]> By: Mike http://www.wvared.com/?p=313&cpage=1#comment-88 Mike Thu, 28 May 2009 14:27:36 +0000 http://www.wvared.com/?p=313#comment-88 Mary, the hard-working members of the coal industry in WV ARE proud...proud that they supply the energy that powers 98% of WV and 50% of the USA. The concern is that a radical few who hate coal...yes, ALL COAL, not just MTM (though they won't be candid and actually admit it)...are hell-bent on putting them out of business through the courts, no matter the cost to our state's economy. Same tactics and acts of terrorism by the enviro-wackos happened in the 1960s and 1970s with contour mining. How would you like it if someone wanted to take away your LEGAL job simply because they didn't like what you did? Keep in mind that EVERY ONE of the enviros' lawsuits has been overturned, meaning that MTM is LEGAL. Those are the facts...deal with it. Tony and I aren't talking about civil trespassing lawsuits...we're talking about tortious interference with a company's right to conduct business and suing for lost production...a pretty hefty amount of damages which would send a harsh message to these out-of-state interlopers. Mary, the hard-working members of the coal industry in WV ARE proud…proud that they supply the energy that powers 98% of WV and 50% of the USA. The concern is that a radical few who hate coal…yes, ALL COAL, not just MTM (though they won’t be candid and actually admit it)…are hell-bent on putting them out of business through the courts, no matter the cost to our state’s economy. Same tactics and acts of terrorism by the enviro-wackos happened in the 1960s and 1970s with contour mining. How would you like it if someone wanted to take away your LEGAL job simply because they didn’t like what you did? Keep in mind that EVERY ONE of the enviros’ lawsuits has been overturned, meaning that MTM is LEGAL. Those are the facts…deal with it.
Tony and I aren’t talking about civil trespassing lawsuits…we’re talking about tortious interference with a company’s right to conduct business and suing for lost production…a pretty hefty amount of damages which would send a harsh message to these out-of-state interlopers.

]]> By: Mary Jones http://www.wvared.com/?p=313&cpage=1#comment-87 Mary Jones Thu, 28 May 2009 13:58:26 +0000 http://www.wvared.com/?p=313#comment-87 Civil trespassing lawsuits very rarely have any impact. At best the court would order the trespasser not to trespass again under threat of contempt of court and/or possible jail time. So those particular protesters would not be able to trespass again, but that won't put an end to the civil disobedience. <I>They just pass the flag to the next in line.</I> The enviro's may not have deep pockets, but they do have plenty of sympathetic lawyer friends who would stand with them in a civil trial. Most likely there would be a settlement offered (involving little if any punitive damages) and the costs would be minimal. But what do the enviro's have to gain by having an Out-of State Corporation sue them? Publicity for their cause? The opportunity to present their facts? Fundraising drives from their growing base of support? <B>All of these are positive things for the Anti-MTR movement.</B> The formal complaints will do little to hinder these organizations in WV. If they in fact are in violation in any way, they will quickly comply and keep on chuggin along. None of the folks who have donated would claim to have been hurt by the organizations, therefore there would be no need for punitive action. <B>Questions: If the Mountaintop Removers feel good about what they do, why do they care what the enviro's say and do? Shouldn't they be proud of the valley fills and toxic sludge impoundments? Or are they worried folks are being educated to the harsh realities that MTR causes, such as health and safety issues they know they have created?</B> Civil trespassing lawsuits very rarely have any impact. At best the court would order the trespasser not to trespass again under threat of contempt of court and/or possible jail time.

So those particular protesters would not be able to trespass again, but that won’t put an end to the civil disobedience. They just pass the flag to the next in line.

The enviro’s may not have deep pockets, but they do have plenty of sympathetic lawyer friends who would stand with them in a civil trial. Most likely there would be a settlement offered (involving little if any punitive damages) and the costs would be minimal.

But what do the enviro’s have to gain by having an Out-of State Corporation sue them? Publicity for their cause? The opportunity to present their facts? Fundraising drives from their growing base of support?
All of these are positive things for the Anti-MTR movement.

The formal complaints will do little to hinder these organizations in WV. If they in fact are in violation in any way, they will quickly comply and keep on chuggin along. None of the folks who have donated would claim to have been hurt by the organizations, therefore there would be no need for punitive action.

Questions:
If the Mountaintop Removers feel good about what they do, why do they care what the enviro’s say and do?
Shouldn’t they be proud of the valley fills and toxic sludge impoundments?
Or are they worried folks are being educated to the harsh realities that MTR causes, such as health and safety issues they know they have created?

]]> By: Roman Stauffer http://www.wvared.com/?p=313&cpage=1#comment-85 Roman Stauffer Thu, 28 May 2009 13:20:55 +0000 http://www.wvared.com/?p=313#comment-85 A formal complaint has been registered with the West Virginia Secretary of State regarding the two organizations mentioned in this story. I ask for an advisory opinion on whether the two organizations should be registered as a non-profit charity with the West Virginia Secretary of State. I also filed a complaint because they are not registered with the Secretary of State. These organizations are engaged in raising money from West Virginians as a non-profit organization and are not registered with the Secretary of State. A formal complaint has been registered with the West Virginia Secretary of State regarding the two organizations mentioned in this story.

I ask for an advisory opinion on whether the two organizations should be registered as a non-profit charity with the West Virginia Secretary of State.

I also filed a complaint because they are not registered with the Secretary of State. These organizations are engaged in raising money from West Virginians as a non-profit organization and are not registered with the Secretary of State.

]]> By: Tony Jackson http://www.wvared.com/?p=313&cpage=1#comment-84 Tony Jackson Thu, 28 May 2009 13:15:17 +0000 http://www.wvared.com/?p=313#comment-84 I guess the best option would be for Massey Energy to file a lawsuit against the organization(s) and the individual people. I doubt they have deep enough pockets to compete with the likes of a corporate coal giant like Massey Energy who spends millions of dollars a year on litigation and will keep them tied up in court for a long time and cause them to spend thousands of dollars on lawyers defending their actions. I say file a lawsuit, like Mike has said. Use a play from their playbook and file a lawsuit. I guess the best option would be for Massey Energy to file a lawsuit against the organization(s) and the individual people.

I doubt they have deep enough pockets to compete with the likes of a corporate coal giant like Massey Energy who spends millions of dollars a year on litigation and will keep them tied up in court for a long time and cause them to spend thousands of dollars on lawyers defending their actions.

I say file a lawsuit, like Mike has said. Use a play from their playbook and file a lawsuit.

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